Pierre Dulaine
The Man behind the Movie!
An Inspiration
Introduction by Keith Todd
Interview by Didio Barrera
Although it is a very long time ago now, I can still remember the first competition I ever attended. It was an IDTA event held at the Empire Rooms, a ballroom on Tottenham Court Road in London. I'm sure it's long gone now. I was not a competitor, but my teachers at the time wanted me to see a competition. I was about eight years old, I believe.
There were medalist competitions, plus professional and amateur events but the highlight was to be a show by the recent winners of the Duel of the Giants at the International Championships. Actually I'd never heard of the International Championships, but everybody seemed excited and at eight it's easy to go with the flow, so I was excited too. The room hushed as the couple were announced and on to the floor came Pierre Dulaine and Rita Pova. As I remember they only danced one number, their winning routine from the Duel of the Giants, "From Russia With Love." I think it says enough that some forty years later I can still remember the title of the piece!
Needless to say, I loved the competition enough to still be involved in competition dancing to this day, but I believe it was the performance of Pierre & Rita that really moved me to continue. Even at my young age I could recognize the passion and intensity that Pierre gave to his dancing. I believe that this passion has stayed with him throughout his career and is still there today.
Anyone who saw Pierre's later performances with Yvonne Marceau could not fail to be mesmerized. I believe that the sense of weightlessness they created has yet to be matched in the world of exhibition or cabaret dancing. I always felt that Pierre was like a magician, all the transitions were done right before your eyes, often slowly and with no apparent strain - it was magic!
Pierre's recent achievements with his revolutionary inner city schools program are just an extension of that magic. I remember judging a competition several years ago in Boston where Pierre was also a judge. We shared a cab ride back to the airport and it was then that he first explained the schools program to me. It sounded fantastic, but I remember being a little skeptical that it would ever get off the ground. But I reckoned without the passion and perseverance of Pierre Dulaine. The program now involves thousands of children and has spread to other cities outside of New York. The program has also inspired two movies, last year's documentary "Mad Hot Ballroom" and the current biopic, "Take The Lead."
I have often good naturedly reminded Pierre that he starred at the very first competition I ever attended and that is now a long time ago for both of us. I think the title of the new movie is a perfect definition of Pierre's life. He was never content to follow others, he always took the lead!
DB: Pierre, we are all so excited for you. We've known you for such a long time. You are a fantastic dancer. You were a star then and now you are a star showing up again worldwide. We know you lived in England with a French connection and are now living in the US. Where were you born?
Pierre Dulaine: First of all, thank you very much. I was born in the Middle East. I was born in Jaffa, Palestine in 1944, which makes me 62 in April. Jaffa, Palestine is no longer Palestine it has now become Israel of course. We were made refugees in '48 then we fled and we came to England. 1948 was after the war but it was not possible for my father to get a decent job so we went back and lived in Jordan in the Middle-East. That is were I grew up until I was 14. Then the Suez Canal crisis in Egypt blew up. My father was English-Irish actually; my mother was Palestinian and French. Suddenly we were British in Jordan. In 1956, we had to flee Jordan. We became refugees again. We went to Lebanon and then we came to England and that is when I took up dancing at the age of 14. We first lived in Windsor, in the south of England near the Windsor Castle, and then we went to live in Birmingham. That is where I took up ballroom dancing when I was 14 years old and lived in England.
DB: You had an extensive career in cabaret and theatrical dancing in addition to Ballroom?
Pierre Dulaine: At the age of 14, I did just regular Ballroom dancing and liked it very much. When I was 19 or 20 years old I moved to London. Soon after that, I met my teacher John Delroy, who was one of the exponents of exhibition dancing. Then in 1966, I entered the first competition at the Royal Albert Hall, the International Championships and we just missed the final by one point. It was very good because in the final you were supposed to have the Jive. But, we did not have the Jive together. I was dancing with a partner called Rita Pova at the time. She was my dance teacher in the old-time style of dancing. Anyway, we came into the semi-finals we had just been dancing together for 7 weeks, so John Delroy said we really did well.
The following year, I had approached Elsa Wells and her husband Larry Butskinsky who was organizing the International Championships with her. I was then invited for the Duel of the Giants. In 1966, my teacher John Delroy was doing the Duel of the Giants against Laird and Lorraine, which he lost that year.
In 1967, we were asked to dance against John and Betty Westley, the reigning then World Amateur Champions, and we won that. Then in the same year in December we won the All England Professional Latin Championships. But that was my Latin dancing. But really, my love was being an exhibition form of dancer. I had done a little bit of ballet at "The Barre", I was not a ballet dancer but I wanted to perform to my own music. There were too many people on the floor. I did not like that. I did not want to conform to what the style of Latin was at that time. Not that I'm in love with the style now, but it's become much more athletic.
But I was very much a forerunner in changing things around rather than just the strict tempo book dancing. I made friends with Doris Lavelle and Nina Hunt. I took some lessons in ballroom but never became an expert in Ballroom. Basically, that is it. I then went on to work on the ships. If I was going to be a professional I wanted to be a professional dancer and not selling shoes during the day and just trying to dance at night. We starved, of course. Any money we made went for lessons, then went for the rent. If there was money left over then we ate something. In fact, it's very true with anybody growing up at that time. I remember Bobbie Irvine saying at the time, "there's no better champion than a hungry champion." Not just hungry for a title, but hungry having to really suffer to make sure you have the time free to practice and go that way. I think she proved it right and she was correct in saying that. Basically, that is it as far as dance then is concerned.
DB: I know people who witnessed you doing the Latin say it was very unique, interesting, out of the ordinary, kind of theatrical. I never saw you doing the Latin, but was it frustrating to you, and still to this day, to see it continues to be so restricted?
Pierre Dulaine: It was regimented. The big problem at the time was that I did not want to adhere to the look of what was being presented by everybody else. I have been an individual. I think as I look back at my life now, thirty years later, I really have been an individual in everything I've done. I think that comes from one's own self. One's own perceived image of oneself. I came from an educated place. I went and took ballet. I knew what my arm work was, what my center was, how to move my body from one leg to another. All of those things I have studied really well to make sure I could perform it with ease. I felt in order for me to win, I would have to adhere to the style. The winning style was the one on the floor with the champions at that time. Unfortunately I was not in love with that style. At the very beginning, it was about coming out in the first round. But they could not keep us out of the first round, because we were too good to be left out of the first round. Coming into the finals, we made all of the finals, (we did not make the British Finals but that's beside the point). Once we got to the final, we made 6th. We had to be either 6th or first. Nobody was teaching John Delroy's type of style, if you want to say. But you know what? That was passé. It only made you stronger. I was not perturbed by it; I went along with it. Actually, I was so frustrated I gave up ballroom dancing and worked for the Talk of the Town in London's Leicester Square in a late night Cabaret with topless girls and I loved it. I worked with the Bluebell girls in East Africa and Nairobi. I've had another career doing theatrical work in the Circus, which I think was wonderful. I remember one day. Alex Moore and Peter Billette and these other people from England happened to be at the Talk of the Town and suddenly the floor opens up and I'm on stage. I see them in the front row. It was quite an experience for both them and myself. They were so surprised. That was good.
DB: I've seen you do Cabaret work, which is amazing to witness. You are probably one of the most celebrated in our industry. I don't think we will ever see another Pierre Dulaine. Why not go into the stage on your own and become a great soloist or an incredible ballet dancer?
Pierre Dulaine: I took my first ballet class when I was 21 years old so I was not going to be a ballet dancer. So that was completely out. But you know my love was partner dancing. If I may say I was an incredible partner. I was a very good partner of a lady and that made me unique. Rather than just dance with the woman. That's what I can say as far as my dancing career, I really knew how to present the lady. I knew how to come on the stage; there was a way. I was taught these things by my teacher John Delroy in England and by a wonderful Greek man who recently passed away, John Rudis, in New York City, that we discovered used to be an adagio dancer in the '30's. He was a wonderful influence on my personal career with my partners. I think what sticks out in my mind is because we traveled all over the world and we did exhibition type style shows in the ballroom world At that time we were the highest paid dancing team. Because we traveled all over the world, and European championships and so many different places that when we chose a piece of music I wanted to make sure it was popular in the country we were visiting as well. I did not just pick a piece that I liked that happened to be nice in America and could not be translated into Europe, or Japan or wherever. I think that was another thought process that went through my mind when I chose music. I came from the world of ballroom. The people that I danced with came from the world of ballet and so we fused these two things together. I think that was much to do with the success that came my way. Because other people right now coming into the world of ballroom or doing showdance, but they don't have the ballet training or the basic structure to pull it off in an elegant way. We have wonderful beautiful girls now adays, but sometimes the girls looks too strong and the men weak. I was lucky to be able to be strong.
DB: Speaking of music. The "Ave Maria" was probably one of your most incredible pieces I ever watched. I literally cried when I watched it. Being religious music I wondered if it might have rubbed some people the wrong way. What inspired you to do that piece?
Pierre Dulaine: It is my favorite piece of music, that and "Concierto de Aranjuez." These two pieces I love and are my all time favorites. It was the correct time to do. I was born in the Middle East. I used to be an altar boy and Catholic. I used to serve mass as an altar boy in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem, many times. I often visited Jerusalem having lived in Jordan. I was brought up with the idea to go to mass every single morning I served mass in school. I went to a French school, of French brothers "les freres de La Salle," in Amman. You're brought up in such a religious situation that "Ave Maria" was just part of my growing up. Of course, when you have the music coming through that. We never used voice. Songs get in the way of the movement of people to go somewhere else.
DB: Speaking of countries and such. With all the places that you have lived and all your traveling, do you have a country? You have so many influences. As a Latin, I feel Colombian even though my country is the US. But I do have this longing for Colombia, even though I will never live there. Do you ever feel this conflict within? Do you have a country you call home?
Pierre Dulaine: I think this is a wonderful question. No one has ever asked me that. I have a conflict, yes. I'm European but I am also Palestinian. That is really incredible that you asked such a question because that is very close to where it hurts in my heart. If there were a country of Palestine right now that could issue me a Palestinian passport, I would do it. I would take a Palestinian passport just for the sake of my background. I was born there; I love the country. It's such a shame the world cannot get its act together for there to be a real Palestine. I think it's just a matter of time. Eventually things will work out. I hope. I cannot go back there of course. I do not wish to be there at this moment. But if there ever came a time when there was a possibility for me to take a Palestinian passport. I have been in America for 34 years. I am not an American citizen. I love America. America has done me very well. I've done very well for America and vice-versa. It's been a wonderful two way street. I would not change my life or my past in any one way. As far as I'm concerned, if you really want to make it, come to America. You can really make it if you want it. I don't necessarily want to have an American passport. Why should I change it? I have a British passport. I can travel all over the world with a British passport. My heart would like to have a Palestinian passport.
DB: As a Latino from Colombia, I do not want to live there, but there is that weird sensation of feeling country-less. You did all this in the ballroom and then went away into the children's project that's been so successful. What inspired you to get involved in this and why?
Pierre Dulaine: You come to a stage in your life were you need to give something back to society. One thing I did a long time ago... when you do something for nothing, many times nothing necessarily good comes but nothing bad comes of it either. In this particular time, I remember doing this show for Ann Reinking where Tommy Tune was present and he saw our act and we worked on Broadway for Tommy Tune. Did the Broadway show "Grand Hotel." So we did that on Broadway for two and a half years. Then six months in London at the Dominion Theater. During my Broadway stint I had my days free. I volunteered myself to go and teach a New York school principal. I went and volunteered for 10 weeks and created my dancing classroom syllabus. It was so successful that a couple of years later I went into it more and more and that is how it started. You come to a place in your life, an age whatever that you need to give something back to society. I've been blessed for my life. So I've worked very, very hard, starved many times as well, but, you know I'm very lucky and you give something back to society. That is what I wanted to do. I volunteered myself to a school and voila, twelve years later, from one class in 1992-1993 to now we are in 120 schools, we are reaching, this year alone, over 12,000 children. I have 42 teachers working for me. It's just incredible, really, really incredible. What can come from just a seed. I did not go seaching this out or planning this. It just happened. The telephone call came and I got excited. I recall my teaching experiences now, I've moved on beyond my dancing years to my teaching experiences. Nothing is greater coming to me at this age in my life, which is wonderful.
DB: I have seen the documentary on your teaching program. It was just amazing. For me it was important your phrase that not everyone will win, but all of the children will benefit from the process. How did you decide there have to be winners and losers?
Pierre Dulaine: No, there are no losers. You said a very wonderful thing. It's the "process" that counts. It's the journey that you must enjoy. The end does not really matter. We are not teaching them Ballroom dancing. We are teaching them to take a bow. When you take a bow that means that you've excelled at something, whether there are winners or losers. You cannot use the word losers. I do not like that word. But there is going to only be one trophy, yes. What will be sad is that there is only one trophy, which will only be for one team. But everyone else, the other eight teams in the grand final, did not get that trophy, but they all had an incredible experience working their way, dreaming about it, getting dressed up. Look at the ballroom competitors here today. How many hours do they spend with their hair, make-up, costumes, dresses, and shoes? All of that work is only for one and a half minutes of dance. But they did it and came back again and they are not winners every time. It's like a drug, I suppose. But it's an inspiration in one's body. As far as my program is concerned, what I would like to think of it as a curriculum based Arts and Education program. I do not do an after school program. It's part of the school day. We are guests in that particular school for twice a week for 10 weeks. But the classroom teacher is there present and dancing with the children. It is up to the classroom teacher to take the work that we do because we give them the history of the dance, the geography, and the musicality. These children write articles about it. The reflections of what it feels like dancing with boys or girls. We call them ladies and gentlemen and not boys and girls. We teach them as adults and human beings. That is the journey that they go on and these kids love to fantasize. We take them out of their normal everyday lives. Because normal everyday lives can be really awkward sometimes or very challenging. One particular quote I can say, from "Take the lead," in the movie is, "why are you laughing when you're dancing? Because it makes me forget the bad things." That for me is what is important, not the winning.
DB: I have not seen "Take the Lead," which I'm dying to go see now. BUt when I watched the documentary I realized had I won I may not be doing this interview or become involved in this paper. Had you won your Latin when you were competing you may not have done all of this? Sometimes the process is what really helps you?
Pierre Dulaine: When a door closes a window opens. My advice to people is believe in yourself. I did not conform as my own choice. I made that choice. I was disgruntled at times, but I made that choice. That I knew something better? Not necessarily. Was I arrogant? I hope not. I eventually kept my own part. Eventually everyone's time will come. Your 15 minutes will come. You have to believe in your own true self.
DB: The movie "Take the Lead" is it the actual story is about the children, and about your life? Is that correct?
Pierre Dulaine: First of all, it's not replicated by what my program exactly really is. It is the same process but our program in the schools is working with the fourth and fifth graders, at least 10 and 11 year old boys and girls. We are now starting working with eighth graders before we move on to high school. Next year hopefully we will go to high schools. But "Take the Lead" is set with high school children; about the challenges and difficulties these children have in their everyday lives. The movie shows the challenges and conflicts of teenagers. With children 10 and 11 year olds, you're left without that type of conflict. So, I think it is about my teaching experiences after my dancing. Where my dancing stops I've now gone on to my teaching experiences. So it's not my life story.
DB: Have you seen parts of the movie? Does Banderas simulate your personality?
Pierre Dulaine: I've seen the movie already four times. I've seen the first director's cut. The final cut will not be ready until March 15. Of course I'm biased but it's really an incredible film. Antonio does dance. I spent the whole month of April as consultant and teacher for the cast in Toronto. Then went back at the end of June. Then in June I was playing my only cameo as the lead Judge. I am in the movie for a few seconds here and there. The whole cast, including Antonio (Banderas), was absolutely incredible. Antonio is a wonderful human being. Because I'm European, and you cannot see it on paper right now, but I speak with my hands. Antonio is very emotional he wears his heart on his sleeve and did a great job. I'm thrilled.
DB: He was very popular in Europe when he lived in Spain. And he did many movies with Pedro Almodovar. Banderas was one of his favorite actors. So how did they find you?
Pierre Dulaine: That is another good question. How did they find me? They did not find me. In the year 2000, there was a program on the CBS Sunday morning news. It was called the Charles Osgood. They had come to us a few months before. They made a 7-minute piece mini-documentary on the program. They followed the school and they followed the final and that particular school in Chelsea, Manhattan PS-11 won it the last 3 years in a row. The colors of the rainbow team match. A wonderful lady by the name of Diane Nabokov who is a movie producer happened to watch it that morning. She heard the name Pierre Dulaine, and eventually tracked me down a few weeks later and met me in my studio. Has anyone approached you about making a movie about your students, about yourself and about your life? I said no. She asked "would you like me to represent you?" I said fine and signed a contract with her. It was sold to MGM. MGM seemed to have dropped it because the man who had liked the idea suddenly moved somewhere else. So she went then and sold it to New Line Cinema and they are the producers of this movie. So Diane Nabokov is my angel and she's producing this film with New Line. She's the one that discovered me. It takes time. New Line decided they would produce it and hired a screenwriter by the name of Dianne Houston. She came to visit me in New York City we spent I think 8 or 9 days, traveling around the schools with me, seeing the children, seeing how I teach, never taking a note. She went back wrote the script. Since then it's been re-written. There have been some additions and deletions. Now we have the movie "Take the Lead."
DB: How has your life changed since this all has exploded with the "Mad Hot Ballroom" documentary, and "Take the Lead" movie, and all these interviews and new people that you've met now?
Pierre Dulaine: I hope it won't change me too much. Yes, we went from 60 schools to 120 so it's much more work. I would like to see this program in as many places as possible. This program is much bigger than me, you and everybody else put together, because for these children it can open up doors for them for the rest of their lives, which really is wonderful. Will it change me? I hope not. Of course I'm speaking to you and a lot of people. But I've been very lucky in our small world, that now I'm on the international stage and all over the world when this movie comes out and "Mad Hot Ballroom." But I've been blessed ever since I was 22 years old winning the Duel of the Giants in 1967. I've had publicity, winnings and championships and all this other stuff. I've won; I've been in the limelight all my life. It has been something I've loved to do; and I've earned my living doing it. This is now more but it is coming at a nice place in my life. I hope it will not change me. I like me.
DB: This is kind of personal. Your parents having to flee Palestine as refugees from country to country. It's not a pleasant thing to be a refugee running around. How does your family feel about you now?
Pierre Dulaine: First of all, my father died when I was 15 when we first fled to England so he did not see all the successes I've had. I am sure he would have been very proud. I'm sure he's watching. I would go back and say that if there were a country Palestine I would love to have a Palestinian passport, because my father loved being in Palestine. I'm really wishing his wish. That is what I would really like to do. My mother is elderly now, but she's still around, bless her heart. Unfortunately, she is unable to come to the opening night of "Take the Lead," in New York City. She cannot fly due to a bad heart and hip replacement. But my sister and her husband, and all her 5 children, and their boyfriends and girlfriends are coming so I have a big group coming to be part of my celebrations on April 4th. So I am really thrilled about that, of course what can I say? I went to Birmingham for the opening night of my documentary "Mad Hot Ballroom." My dancing teacher taught me from the very beginning Jean Johnson, I invited her. My other teachers and other people I worked with came to the opening night. So when "Take the Lead" opens up in London I will go and do the opening there. There should be something in Birmingham. I go back every Christmas, that's were it all started for me.
DB: That someone like you could present Ballroom now called DanceSport in such a lovely way and managed to do it through children, I think it's incredible. So what's in the future for you? What is your next step?
Pierre Dulaine: I just need to ride the wave of this and I have other things coming up. Nothing set in stone yet so I cannot get into it at the moment. I would like to retire as well. I don't know how and when. But there are a lot of things opening up; I know that for a fact. I am very proud. I hope you don't think I'm big headed but you know, Frank Sinatra sang it "My Way" and I'm proud because I did it my way. Because what we're really teaching is responsibility in life, and being nice and respectful to each other. Ballroom dancing really gives that to people. I did not dwell on the technique, or on being the champion of the technical aspect. Not that I would not have wanted to do that. But that door was closed on me a long time ago. I somehow found that window and opened it and look where I am now. The biggest advice I can give to people is: "Believe in yourself. Go for it. You never know."
DB: Off the top of your head can you tell us the schedule of what's happening?
Pierre Dulaine: The movie " Take the Lead" will open on over 3,000 screens on April 7th, I think. I invite everyone to go and see what a blockbuster it will be. I know with the piracy of films they'd rather open sooner rather than later. This is a guess, the DVD will come out around September. The DVD comes out soon after that. I think that's what might happen. On the DVD, there is extra footage, they have a mini-documentary of my teaching children, and people can take a lesson from that, a lesson with the "real" Pierre Dulaine. I'm looking forward to the DVD. I use my own children, who are in my school younger than 15 years old. The actors are actors first and then you have to teach them dancing.
DB: You are putting so much of you into this monster of a project. What do you do for Pierre to relax?
Pierre Dulaine: I don't do very much actually for me. I work 7 days a week, I was working at least 15 or16 hours a day. I have 3 managers now working for the studio and me. Because I still have a dance studio, I haven't been taking care of that. So now I am only working 11 or 12-hour days. I just love doing what I'm doing. I love to go for a massage, if I can get the time. I like to go to the movies. What I'm the proudest of what I have done. The problem with the word of competition Ballroom Dancing is that it is for the white people. In the color of America we have Hispanics, we have the Asians, the African Americans. You don't see any of these people competing. I don't want to say the doors are closed to them...
DB: It has become a sport for the rich, like golf. You have to have major means. When I look out there, no one makes their own dresses anymore. You can't be just a dressmaker, you almost have to be a designer. What do you think we can do?
Pierre Dulaine: What is being done is that these children that I'm bringing up through the schools. It's called the "Colors of the Rainbow Team Match." When you see the movie, you see the colors of America. I would love to see the colors of America on a Ballroom dance floor. That would be my dream, if I ever had a dream. I think that could happen eventually. My program is in Chicago and in Omaha, we are licensing it to other cities. That is what my traveling duties are about at the moment, doing teacher training and licensing across the country. I love the Russian community, I'm not saying anything bad about that at all. But I hope the organizers will open up the doors whenever there is a competition in the city where there is a dance program to the local public schools so that on a Saturday or a Sunday they can bring their children in to see these adults dancing, free of charge. They can get sponsorship for these things. That they can, and I'm hoping something like that will happen so that the children and not just for the children of New York City alone where we have 12,000 children. Last week, I took my kids to a competition run by Michelle Officer and Eddie Simon. I took 58 children there. I took 80 kids to Spencer & Elena Nyemchek's event in November. That is when you see real dancing. We're teaching children to bring it out from within, not letting the outside in. I'd like to see more of that in the Adults. I'd like to see more African American men and women, Asian men and women, and Hispanic, you are Hispanic, you're Latino. They're dancers and can dance twice as fast and as good as white Americans. I'm not being racist. But we don't see them out.
DB: It's become a bit like golfing. I read that Tiger Woods is trying a progam like yours. The same in tennis. It's lovely you are doing that for us. Because if you cannot afford it, you cannot participate...
Pierre Dulaine: And it should not be about money. If I had relied in my life on money... I did things for nothing and people should. It will come back to you. It really will. Because these kids will become somebody and they will not forget. So they will give it back again. We have wonderful sponsors in these competitions. I think if these sponsors were to be asked to sponsor a situation, the money would be there. Money is cheap. It is the thought process; it has to be taken on from there.
DB: Pierre thank you so much for this tremendous interview. I've been dying to do it for the last couple of years now. You came at the right time and it's fantastic.
Pierre Dulaine: You need to know that I have known Keith (Todd) since he was a little kid. We go back a long time. I saw him dancing with a little lollipop. It's really wonderful to be here.